Apples and oranges and counting workers

OK… this is for labor force wonks only.

So if you read the official press release on the monthly dump of labor force statistics, a headline the state points out is that the count of total unemployed in the region dropped by 2,000 between October and November, and that was the largest monthly drop since May of 1999! A meme some of the media picked up on.
Well… sort of. If you look back in the news, there were plenty of months were unemployment drops of 2K or much more were reported.  But that data has all been revised and virtually all larger month over month changes were dampened down (which begs a question, what would the 2K unemployment drop have been under the old data?) So it all depends how you look at it.

Some may recall that the state recently switched the method of seasonal adjustment for this data.  I went into that in some detail earlier.  Basically, the state stopped applying their own seasonal adjustment, and instead standardized on the US Bureau of Labor Statistics data.  OK. No problem.  They also did what is a good analytical thing and switched their historical data to reflect the new adjustment, even though it was different from what was reported at the time.  OK as well.   They did that ‘backcasting’ all the way back to January of 2000 which is what the BLS was providing.

Soo…  is the current unemployment drop the biggest since 1999?  Basically you have apples and oranges.  The new seasonal adjustment clearly smooths out a lot of month over month variability than in the past.  So ove the last decade there were plenty of months where unemployment dropped by 2,000 or more in the region.  But with the seasonal adjustment they went away.   No surprise that the last big jump  was in data from the earlier decade, which reflects the older seasonal adjustment that allowed for bigger monthly jumps in the data.   How different are the new vs. old seasonal adjustments?  Just compare what the time series looks like before and after January 2000.  Lot’s of variation just gone per this graphic of whatis nominally supposed to be consistent data looking backwards.     Note the whole time series is for seasonally adjusted data.  But there is no need for my highlighting to show where the seasonaly adjustment algorithms differ.  Two pretty different realities.

And this is not a story of a decade ago vs. now. The data that was coming out earlier last year was really the older data. Lots of contemporeanous month by month analysis of that data over the decade would actually be very different if the data now being reported was used. Basically a lot of apparent ‘news’ at the time just got wiped away by the new data.

So the punchline?   Know your data.  Goes beyond repeating a number.

For some simpler punditry.  Employment and Labor Force for Pittsburgh are again hitting new all-time highs in November.   I will always argue to look at trends more than the monthly numbers for the reasons above and more.  So it turns out this is the 7th straight month in a row the region has hit a new all-time labor force peak.  I think we can begin to talk about it well beyond any monthly variation. Not that there has been a single mention of the factoid (all time peak labor force in Pittsburgh) by anyone.  Odd.

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more people……

Boring unemployment news today… or is it.  Another jump in Pittsburgh’s labor force. See interactive graph for more.  Pittsburgh MSA labor force +26K year over year through October. Works out to +2.1% or more than double US labor force growth (+1%) over the same period.

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Rust Belt Redux

So BLS is reporting that the Pittsburgh regions seasonally adjusted unemployment rate ticked up to 7.4% in September, from 7.3% in August.  It is a curious artifact of the new seasonal adjustment in that the seasonally unadjusted rate for the region was 6.7% in September of 2011, AND September of 2012.

I thought to be fair I should update my rust belt divergence chart of unemployment rates in Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Detroit. See below. I will add in Charlotte gratuitously.  Yes, to give credit where due, Cleveland has been coming in under our unemployment rate the last few months.  Go Cleveburgh!

It is not quite a strict comparison of course.  Pittsburgh looks to again be setting a new record in the size of the regional labor force.

But here is the graph.  Lots of convergence.  What I find surprising is that for 5 months earlier in the year Charlotte’s unemployment rate was higher than Detroit’s.  Just a factoid to chomp on.

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Retroactive record setting unemployment rates

Little noticed in the media, but there was a big change in labor force stats routinely reported on each month for the Pittsburgh region.

A few may remember this post from April when I mentioned that the Bureau of Labor Statistics was reporting seasonally adjusted unemployment rates for the Pittsburgh region that were different from what the state’s own numbers were showing.  Not the biggest of discrepancies so no big deal.  The difference between the two data points was not an error, but an artifact of two different methodologies for adjusting raw labor force data for seasonal variation.

It turns out that with the data just released last week (beginning with the August MSA data) the state has basically given up on using their own models and are now reporting the BLS version of the same regional labor force data for MSAs within the state.  OK, not a problem there.   They also are using the BLS data going back in time to 2000.   Basically all the historical unemployment rate data as reported contemporaneously has been changed.  In some months the differences between the old and new unemployment rates for Pittsburgh can be quite substantial up to as much as 4/10ths of a percent.

But one theme here in recent years is that we have been generally bouncing around or in a few months tying a month in the 1970s which was the last period in which the regional unemployment rate was so far below the nation’s unemployment rate.  The new data actually works out to be a new record (in the past).  In October of 2009 the national unemployment rate was finally reported at 10.0%.  For the Pittsburgh MSA the originally reported final unemployment rate was reported at 8.0% which gives a difference of 2.0 percentage points.   The new unemployment rate being reported for the region that month is 7.7% which gives a difference of 2.3 percentage points below the national unemployment rate.  That would be the largest gap by which Pittsburgh’s unemployment rate below the national unemployment rate in any data since 1970 and likely much further back.

There are actually a slew of contemporanous news stories, punditification, and headlines that all would have to be qualitatively rewritten if the revised data were known at the time. It all gets again to how much we overinterpret these monthly labor force data dumps. Hold that thought because there are some bigger issues in that I may get back to.

With the revision of data back to 2000, the entire time series has been changed.  Here is the updated version of my chart showing the difference between local and national unemployment rates. If you really want to discount what the green means, I don’t have time to update my calculation of the cumulative difference in this chart, but basically these are unprecedented times in some ways for the region’s labor force..  Think all that may have something to do with the record size of the regional labor market and recent net migration flows into the region?  You bet.

John Williams on Lies, Damned Lies and the 7.8% Unemployment Rate

John Williams Shadowstats.com Author John Williams wonders if politics are at play behind the latest jobs report, which shows 114,000 new U.S. jobs since September and a 0.3% drop in unemployment since August. Investors need to know how seasonal factors and month-to-month volatility affect the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ reports. In this exclusive interview with The Gold Report, Williams explains why he doubts that we are in a recovery. The take-away? Look at the unadjusted figures before you sell your gold.

The Gold Report: John, as Mark Twain famously quipped, “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.” The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) just came out with new jobs numbers that show the country added 114,000 jobs since September and the unemployment rate dropped to 7.8%, down from 8.1% in August. On Shadowstats.com, you argue that the numbers are wrong and pointed to politics as a possible reason for the incorrect figures. Are unemployment statistics being manipulated and if so how?

John Williams: I normally put out a commentary on the numbers, and, in this one, I raised the possibility of politics as a factor. The problem is very serious misreporting of the numbers and the result is what appears to be a bogus unemployment rate. The BLS reported a drop in the unemployment rate from 8.1% to 7.8%, three-tenths of a percentage point, which runs counter to what is being experienced in the marketplace.

What few people realize is that the headline unemployment rate is calculated each month using a unique set of seasonal adjustments. The August unemployment rate, which was 8.1%, was calculated using what BLS calls a “concurrent seasonal factor adjustment.” Each month the agency recalculates the series to adjust for regular seasonal patterns tied to the school year or holiday shopping season or whatever is considered relevant. The next month, it does the same thing using another set of seasonal factors. Rather than publish a number that’s consistent with the prior month’s estimate, it recalculates everything, including the previous month, but it doesn’t publish the revised number from the previous month.

The assumption is that the monthly recalculations don’t make much difference over time, but they do. The depth and the protraction of the current severe economic downturn have thrown off the annual seasonal-factor adjustments. The result is very volatile seasonal factors month-to-month. That means the new calculations for the September number may have resulted in a very significant revision to the August number. Again, though, the BLS doesn’t publish that, so the headline August-to-September 2012 change in the unemployment rate is not consistent and not comparable. Last December, when the BLS put the seasonal adjustments on a consistent basis for the year, as it does once per year, the November 2011 unemployment rate had just been reported as showing four-tenths of a percentage point drop—an unusually large monthly decline that never took place. When revised to a consistent basis, the drop in headline November unemployment revised to two-tenths of a percent. That is a big change. I think something like that happened here.

The BLS knows what the actual number is. It has an actual estimate for August, which is consistent with September, but it doesn’t publish it because it says it “doesn’t want to confuse data users.” But it is putting out numbers that have no meaning month-to-month. One month before the election and a month after Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke announced Quantitative Easing (QE) 3, is not a time to have inaccurate numbers. The BLS should publish the consistent numbers now.

TGR: You have said that BLS has been using this recalculation method for years. Do you feel that this month the numbers were more skewed than usual because of the political timing?

JW: Because there is no transparency in the calculation and reporting process, it leaves open the possibility of manipulation. What has happened here, though, is that in the wake of the economic collapse, the seasonal factors have been heavily distorted and are not stable on a month-to-month basis. Where the concept originally might not have made that much of a difference, it does make a big difference now. I suspect that is why we woke up to such a screwy unemployment rate this time around.

The 114,000 jobs growth in the payroll survey (which reflects the number of payroll jobs, counting multiple jobholders more than once) also is suspect and subject to concurrent-seasonal-factor adjustments. There, however, the BLS publishes revised estimates for the two prior months that are on a consistent basis with the headline number. Nonetheless, jobs in even earlier months are not re-reported, although they too are recalculated each month, with the effect that jobs reported in earlier periods can be moved into present reporting, boosting the current numbers, without the related earlier changes being revised in the published historical numbers. Nonetheless, the purported 114,000 jobs gain was not statistically significant.

From the household survey, which gives us the unemployment rate and counts the number of people who are employed (multiple-job holders are counted but once), the headline gain in employment was 873,000, the largest seasonally-adjusted monthly increase since Ronald Reagan’s first-term. That number clearly is nonsense and again suggests there is a severe problem with the seasonal factors.

TGR: Do you think the unemployment rate was manipulated on purpose or did the bad economy just make the reporting more confusing?

JW: It could have been manipulated. I do not know and do not have direct evidence of current political massaging of the data. I know for certain that there have been direct political manipulations by different administrations, since the days of President Lyndon Johnson, involving various data sets that have included the gross domestic product (GDP), the trade numbers and the employment and unemployment numbers.

From what I’ve seen of the Obama administration, the reporting has been reasonably clean. Nonetheless, at best, the administration is using seriously flawed data, and the reporting and calculation process has the potential for manipulation. The timing of the announcement of such a big downside swing in unemployment certainly is a fortuitous circumstance for the administration’s political needs.

Main Street U.S.A., however, has a much better sense on the economic reality than do the government’s economic statisticians. If the headline unemployment rate is not as advertised, a goodly portion of the public will not buy it. Past experience has shown gimmicked reporting often backfiring on the manipulators.

TGR: What is the correct unemployment rate? What would be a reliable data set?

JW: I don’t know of one. The unemployment rate comes out of government surveying and data manipulation, and the base number is wrong. What are good in theory are the un-adjusted numbers, although unemployment definitions still suffer. Those don’t get revised for the seasonal factors. But there you have regular annual patterns of economic activity, so you’ll see the unemployment rate go up and down as it follows the normal flow of annual business activity through the various seasons. Even so, it makes some sense to look at that unadjusted series over time. The average person doesn’t think of himself or herself as employed on a seasonally adjusted basis, but a lot of people, according to the government, are so employed.

If you surveyed everyone in the country as to whether he or she were unemployed, you’d get an unemployment rate above 22%, instead of the headline 7.8%. The difference is in how the government defines whether someone is unemployed, versus the view from common experience.

TGR: What are the ultimate consequences of inaccurate statistics on the stock market, commodity prices and everyday people?

JW: Right now, the impact of the unemployment numbers is mostly political, although the Federal Reserve has made it part of its targeting in terms of QE3. But the primary political concerns are on the impact to the upcoming election, which is what makes the timing of this release so suspect.

There is a serious problem with the reporting. If it has been used to manipulate the public, that eventually will come out. If it hasn’t, the simplest thing is for the BLS just to publish the actual numbers. They have them. They don’t have to do any recalculations. They’ve already done that. They just need to publish them in a timely manner.

TGR: There seemed to be an impact on the stock market. The Dow ended Friday up. Was that simply a coincidence?

JW: Yes, the market jumped all over the place. But I see no rationale whatsoever behind the movements in the stock market. Any numbers will be used to spin a story that will explain what’s happening with stocks at a given point in time.

TGR: What about commodity prices? What will this do to gold?

JW: You had some sell-off in gold Friday. Again, that could all be spin. Was it due to people thinking Bernanke was not going to have to ease monetary policy as much? I’m not into day-to-day calling of the markets. The stock market is absolutely irrational. You can make up all sorts of stories based on that. Markets respond to lots of really worthless information—the 114,000 gain in payrolls for example is not statistically meaningful. It could have been a contraction as well as a gain, when the 129,000-job margin of error is considered. Yet, the markets gyrate wildly over very small changes that have no relationship to what’s actually happening in the economy. I think traders just love to trade. It’s like going to the racetrack and betting on a horse because of how it wiggles its ears. It has little to do with the underlying fundamentals.

TGR: Is there an ultimate consequence of having faulty data? Do incorrect numbers build on themselves and become more inaccurate over time? Will we see a jump in the unemployment rate in December when they are recalculated after the election? Are there other consequences?

JW: When governments use bad numbers, and believe them, they don’t respond appropriately to problems like unemployment and inflation. People don’t properly target their investment returns or adjust their income projections. There are good reasons for having accurate information, but accurate numbers just are not coming out of the U.S. government at the moment.

TGR: You mentioned the correlation with the announcement of QE3. When we talked in May, you called QE “dangerous” and said it would eventually lead to a massive decline in the U.S. dollar, triggering new dollar selling and lead to dollar inflation, spikes in oil prices and eventually hyperinflation. Your special commentary on inflation and systemic conditions comes out next week on ShadowStats. Can we expect any good news?

JW: The outlook hasn’t changed. I’ve been looking at this for a long time. Let me put it this way: The economy is not suddenly improving. Underlying fundamentals have not changed. You just are getting bad-quality numbers.

The average guy has a pretty good sense of what is going on. When Main Street suddenly starts getting jobs and businesses pick up, then we will know the economy is picking up. Shy of that, I’d be wary of anything I hear out of the government on business activity.

TGR: So the reports that we are in a recovery aren’t accurate? What indicators should we be watching?

JW: Over time, you will find the better-quality statistics are confirming that we never had an economic recovery, and that we’re not about to get one. When you have faulty numbers, you need to look at the underlying fundamentals to see what’s happening. The problem is the consumer doesn’t have the liquidity, either from the standpoint of income growth or credit availability, to sustain positive growth in the GDP.

TGR: Thank you for your time, John. We will check in with you periodically to see if you see any changes in those numbers.

nonfarm payroll data

Walter J. “John” Williams has been a private consulting economist and a specialist in government economic reporting for 30 years. His economic consultancy is called Shadow Government Statistics (ShadowStats.com). His early work in economic reporting led to front-page stories in The New York Times and Investor’s Business Daily. He received a bachelor’s degree in economics, cum laude, from Dartmouth College in 1971, and was awarded a Master of Business Administration from Dartmouth’s Amos Tuck School of Business Administration in 1972, where he was named an Edward Tuck Scholar.

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Which number do I use?

So here is a labor force story in the news today. Trib:  Job search dropouts abound

The theme there?  The labor force participation rate has been trending down.  Ok.  Hold that thought, but remember that the labor force participation rate is the labor force divided by the working age population variously defined.

Now what do we know the local labor force?  Highest level ever.  Yes, currently the size of the regional labor force is at or near its highest point in history.  As in ever. All time. I tell people this and they just don’t believe me. Most likely because the news all reads the opposite.  Of course it is mostly news reflecting national stats and not what is going on locally.

So what if the labor force participation rate is going down, but the size of Pittsburgh’s labor force is growing rather rapidly then what gives?  One of two things kind of has to be true.  One possibility is that thelocal labor force participation rate is shooting up; which makes that headline today the very opposite of what is the local story.

So I was going to end it there, but there is another story that gets to how we all overinterpret the monthly labor force data.   So the local labor force data just came out the other day and the headline is Pittsburgh’s unemployment rate went up to 7.3%.

Or did it?

7.3% is the number in the press release put out for sure (saved here dated October 1st). Yet compare those numbers to the numbers just posted on the state’s interactive web site which were just updated as well.  What I see (downloaded October 4) is this and it is not 7.3%.

In itself not a big deal really and I suspect some revision did not get into the right file.  So I suspect one of the sources (press release or interactive data) will be updated to eliminate the discrepancy, but still it gets to the core point that the coverage of the monthly preliminary numbers is at least overwrought.     In fact if you look at the JULY 2012 numbers in the states press release and compare it to the interactive data the region’s unemployment rate is different by 0.3%. That actually is kind of a big deal somehow.  Remember there was a news cycle on the first numbers that came out and we pay little attention to any revisions.

So depending on which dataset you look at you can’t definitively say the latest numbers are the all time labor force high.  The important thing is the trend and that is still pretty clear.  Whatever is going on with the latest number the Pittsburgh region is at or bouncing around its all time labor force peak, a story completely overlooked locally.  It is certainly a story different from the nation’s and deserves a lot more treatment than

Who Pays Taxes?

Everyone:

Virtually all Americans will pay taxes during their lifetime. The uncertainty that came packaged with the Great Recession has allowed for the proliferation of many other economic misconceptions, especially in regard to taxes. Today’s economic context for tax reform is very complex. Most immediately, the economy is still in the midst of a slow recovery with an unemployment rate that remains too high.  Even with robust rates of job growth, it will take years to close the jobs gap. An important role of fiscal policy in the near term is to support recovery in the labor market.

Nothing’s sure but death and taxes, which is why it doesn’t make sense to argue about who pays taxes.  The more correct argument is over who pays which specific taxes, to what extent, and at which point in time.  This latter discussion is more complex, and the resolution less satisfying, which is why you never see it.  The truth of the matter is that all people pay taxes in some way, and virtually every worker pays income (oops, I mean “payroll”) taxes.  Everyone pays taxes someway, somehow; directly and indirectly.  The only variables are rate and timing.
Thus, it’s not wise to talk about how 47% don’t pay any income taxes—the government will still tax them somehow.

It Takes One to Know One

Some hack calls out FoxNews for lying about unemployment:

During a segment criticizing the Obama administration for its messaging on the economy, a Fox & Friends graphic claimed that the “real unemployment rate” had increased from 7.8% in 2009 to 14.7% now.

But in order to make the claim that unemployment had increased from 7.8% to 14.7% during Obama’s time in office, Fox had to conflate two different statistics and completely distort Obama’s jobs record.

The 7.8 percent figure is the official unemployment rate from January 2009. This statistic reports on people who are unemployed and actively looking for a job. But as of the latest report, the official unemployment rate is 8.1 percent (0.3 percent higher than it was in January 2009), not 14.7 percent.

The 14.7 percent figure is a completely different measurement of the unemployed, which in addition to those who are actively looking for work, also counts people who are unemployed and discouraged from looking for a new job, part-time workers who prefer full-time employment, and more. This alternative measure of unemployment, which conservatives often call the “real” unemployment rate, was 14.2 percent in January 2009 — 0.5 percentage points lower than it is today.

So, it sounds like unemployment hasn’t gotten that much worse during the course of Obama’s administration,* doesn’t it?  Oh, wait…
* As if the president is primarily responsible for every last aspect of the economy anyway, but that’s a post for another day.

So does college pay off?

I know there are doubters that are getting louder… but at the end of the day lifetime earnings add up. Below is the differential in wages by educational attainment among those employed.  It’s not only the wage differential in itself that matters, but you have to also consider the significantly lower unemployment rates for those with more education that compounds these numbers.   Also some recent commentary from the Cleveland Fed is pretty clear that the premia for higher education is not going away anytime soon.

After Jackson Hole, Clear Road Ahead?

In terms of forward guidance I think the Fed Chairman’s speech provided little direction, but Friday’s precious metal price action into the close and the various sell side notes that I have seen suggest that this, at least initially, is too bearish a conclusion. The following excerpt from the speech, in particular, was taken as clear evidence of more and aggressive easing in the pipeline.

As we assess the benefits and costs of alternative policy approaches, though, we must not lose sight of the daunting economic challenges that confront our nation. The stagnation of the labor market in particular is a grave concern not only because of the enormous suffering and waste of human talent it entails, but also because persistently high levels of unemployment will wreak structural damage on our economy that could last for many years.

Great emphasis has been attached to the chairman’s use of the word “grave” as a clear tell-tell sign of more easing to come. I find this quite interesting since it is one of the first instances of such “new speak” interpretation of the Fed’s statements akin to the good old days of Trichet and the utterance of (strong) vigilance. Needless to say, next week’s jobs market report has suddenly been propelled to a key market event and every single US data point will now be watched with caution. On that note, the next ISM reading as well as consumption figures will be equally important to watch.

I think Tim Duy’s interpretation is the right one then (hat tip Calculated Risk) with my emphasis.

On net, Bernanke’s speech leads me to believe the odds of additional easing at the next FOMC meeting are somewhat higher (and above 50%) than I had previously believed. His defense of nontraditional action to date and focus on unemployment points in that direction. This is the bandwagon the financial press will jump on. Still, the backward looking nature of the speech and the obvious concern that the Fed has limited ability to offset the factors currently holding back more rapid improvement in labor markets, however, leave me wary that Bernanke remains hesitant to take additional action at this juncture. This suggests to me that additional easing is not a no-brainer, but perhaps that is just my internal bias talking.

On balance the main point for me is that the recent change in economic data clearly merits policy change on the basis of the Fed’s reaction function.

The unemployment rate in the US is sticky and the Fed has been persistently concerned about this which is indeed a strong signal to the policy bias especially as inflation expectations are well behaved. Inflation has come down significantly in the US running at 1.4% YoY and the Taylor Rule rate is now declining (though still in level terms way above 0 but that has more to do with the inputs than anything else). We have had two consecutive months of sub-50 ISM readings and consumption growth appears to be rolling over. My interpretation of the forward looking indicators is that they look better than the consensus suggests, but the Fed lives in the here and now and will act accordingly.

Another interesting point here is that despite the visible and strong recovery in the growth rates of US housing market indicators, Bernanke mentions the level of the housing market and not the change which suggest that the despite a good run of data with respect to the change in housing market indicators the level is still seen as depressed.

The bottom line is that some form of easing is coming but what I find highly uncertain is the timing and aggressiveness of such easing. The August minutes had already stipulated potential moves for the Fed in the form of an extension of the low interest rate commitment, lowering interest rates on excess reserves as well as an extension of Operation Twist or outright asset purchases (probably through MBS securities). But which of these measures will be employed and in what order?

One thing for example which I find very interesting is the glaring gap between Bernanke’s discussion of the effectiveness of unconventional monetary policy and its effect on the real economy (i.e. labour market). In that sense, it seems quite clear to me that quantitative easing can have a strong effect in the context of imminent deflation risks and strong downward pressures in asset prices. In such an environment the portfolio effect and, indeed, outright price effect from aggressive central bank action can be very effective.

However, whether quantitative easing can be effective in countering a structural and sticky unemployment rate (and indeed a structurally declining labour force participation rate) seems much more uncertain to me. Obviously, this goes back to the point that the Fed is the wrong tool for the job at hand, but it also raises the issue of what kind of easing the Fed is planning here.

Of the measures mentioned above one of the only things which would have an effect on the labour market (from a theoretical point of view) is an extension of the low interest rate commitment. This would be a signal to companies that their cost of capital would remain low and incentivise investment and thus, in theory, additional labour input. But such a process is slow and arguably a weak remedy in the context of structural labour market issues.

More generally, we must ask ourselves whether an extension of the low interest rate commitment be enough for the market Clearly not and in any case, an extension much beyond Bernanke’s term would be meaningless as the looming presidential election has created uncertainty as to how strong this commitment is, if for example Bernanke is faced with a Republican president.

What about an extension of Operation Twist then? If this is combined with an expansion of the balance sheet through purchases of MBS I think this could be an effective medicine (although in general I find it hard to see how it could meaningfully affect the labour market). However, the theoretical argument here is fair. By influencing long rates the Fed is likely to stand the greatest chance of supporting the ongoing recovery in the housing market and thus, by derivative, the US economy.

Ultimately, I see two sources of uncertainty here. Firstly, it is not clear to me that the US economy is heading into a hole in the second half of 2012 to an extent that would allow very strong Fed action. Secondly, while the Fed clearly seems committed and perhaps even pre-committed to more easing the nature of such easing and its scope is still very uncertain to me. The upside risk attached to much stronger easing is clearly there (not least because we also have the ECB coming in with policy measures soon), but the spectre of grave disappointment has not been completely extinguished in my view.