Conversely, prioritization of survival projects by “the team” is highly important and COULD and SHOULD be arranged hierarchically. Such would not affect the equal wellbeing of the people. Chain of command (tenure/experience) should be honored or not… “by choice”, if possible. I suspect that in the world of the native American tribes, elders may have been given larger amounts of wellbeing than others, via free choice OF those others. This would likely happen due to those elders being highly cherished and revered (having a good name/rep). Okay bye again.

E: Ah Wingnut, that you should find a way to inject “Gestapo” into this discussion. Lest we forget that this notorious organization was but an extension of an ideology that you undoubtedly are familiar with.

A little bit. Mostly rumors and stuff written in grammar school history books. I’m not overly-knowledgeable in historic systems that were labeled as “socialist” but, I think you can see that MY version of socialist is a pyramid-less, potluck-ish, barnraiser, Christian/hippy love-everything, treat every living thing with the gentleness of a child, -type of socialism.

E: According to author Ronald Lewin, Adolf Hitler once remarked that it was “the task of the commander-in-chief to educate the army to be National Socialist.”

Are we talking about MY kind of socialism, or something that uses hierarchies and has a lack of egalitarian ops? Mine uses no money and no ownership (not “state” ownership either). Mine uses no forcing, only requesting/begging for membership.

E: Here are other interesting quotes that definitely were not made by a capitalist:

E: “Gold is not necessary. I have no interest in gold. We will build a solid state, without an ounce of gold behind it. Anyone who sells above the set prices let him be marched off to a concentration camp. That’s the bastion of money.”

My preferred system using no selling or money. So, not applicable… but interesting.

E: “Society’s needs come before the individual’s needs.”

My preferred system has nothing coming before anything else. “Before” and “after” are the beginning words of a phenomenon called prioritization, and thus its the start of pyramids/hierarchies… a bad thing. (inequality)

E: “It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of the nation, that the position of the individual is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole.”

My preferred system works from the mind and heart, and not by forced allegiance. Everything is of importance. If the transparent and proven goals of “the team” are sound and noble, those with heart and mind will help that team because they know of its wisdom and results. There will be those who refuse to help the team, no matter how nicely we ask. Although destroying team resources will be outlawed, we will not force them to participate…. only ask them and show them (prove to them) why its a great idea.

E: “Why nationalize industry when you can nationalize the people?”

I’m more for “planetize” the people. Every country building their own imperialism (economy/servitude system)… so they can compete with other national imperialisms (economy/servitude system)… is just setting the planet-up for a giant war of the imperialisms… or in other words, war of the economies. Which nations get to own/control which nations? That is a recipe for world war, and should be avoided. Instead, take down the borders between nations, companies, and yards. Become transparent to each other, and inclusive to all.

If your 7 year old is a terrorist, do you hang them? No, you restrain, then ask a billion questions, try a billion sensibility schools, try churches, try ANYTHING… but not kill them. Can we do the same for adult “terrorists” no matter which “nationalization” they are aligned-with?

E: For the folk-community does not exist on the fictitious value of money but on the results of productive labour, which is what gives money its value.

So money is “slavery/servitude certificates”? And price-tags are “slavehour requirements”? Yep, I agree. Pretty disgusting for us to blockade survival supplies with such immoral and AmWay-exclusive requirements/demands, eh? Making only ONE type of money (competer’s church coupons) be legal tender… is SO illegal and immoral… I can’t even describe it.

E: Perhaps you have read some of these before, but at any rate. all the above quotes were also attributed to Adolf Hitler. It certainly does not surprise me one bit that he chose to describe himself as a socialist.

No, I haven’t seen these before, and thanks for including them. I enjoyed reading them. I don’t doubt that Hitler had some correct thoughts about “all on the same team”, but I believe the man was into conquering, and not ASKING for members. That would make HIS form of the superwide term “socialist”… much much different from my preference, right? Try not to over-generalize and over-fear the term “socialist”. Never has a barnraising or potluck dinner… been seen to be gestapo-like… as far as I know. Forced-socialisms, and volunteer socialisms… are quite different. And my favorite kind of socialism… would also be very very transparent. Thus, any “ulterior motives” would be seen like neon… and immediately questioned for wisdom, logic, and love. All the best! Wing

I’m looking for higher intelligence. You and your blog threatened me with censorship, and you did a “not gonna discuss this any further” pout and stomp, so… I moved on. I thought it was a reasonably good debate until your last post, and that’s why I reference people to your blog.

Chance: As I have explained to you before, the military is simply not a viable example on which to build your new society.

I disagree. But the main thing… is that SOME social structure be devised… that doesn’t place folks into servitude out of fear for survival. It’d also be nice if folks quit trying to gain empowerments by needing to own/control Earth-made things. The military supply system is one such system. I’m sure there’s others. Find them. Think them out.

Chance: As Dan described, it is heavily hierarchical and controlled. “Survival” rersources are not distributed evenly. Google the military pay scale and bonus structure.

I already answered that. The military supply system “basic issue” is the same for all members of the military no matter the rank or monetary pay-grade, and you know it. The same goes for tools and rec-services. Again, quit trying to BS yourself about the socialism you’re a member-of and see working well. Don’t confuse the chain-of-command… with the supply system. One does not affect the other. Only off-base or in money-is-used military facilities, does rank matter. Generally, only in some commissaries, mini-marts, places of luxuries. Money/ownership is not used in the GSA store or in base supply warehouses.

Chance: You will see that the military structures its reward system based on the demands of the employment market. I receive a sizable bonus every year so that I won’t leave to work somewhere else with the nuclear engineering knowledge the Navy has provided me.

No. Retention bonuses are based upon the cost of training (a replacement for you) in your career field.

Chance: More than that, though, (and as I have described to you before) the military is not a resource producer; it is a resource sink.

Correct. Its current work-purpose is not to keep its supply system stocked. We can change that, as soon as war is no longer necessary. That comes from taking down all borders and putting all living things on the same “us” team. Look to the movie “Independence Day” if you want to see how the world acts when we’re all on the same team. We’re all supposed to share the Earth, not fight over ownership/control of it. Moreover, we HAVE TO share the Earth and its given wellbeing supplies, and soon.

Chance: The military would not exist without a producing economy behind it to feed it resources.

Wrong. It needs no economy. It needs supplies, though. Economies are not needed… to produce supplies. Try it without servitude/slavery (forcing 18 years old to work or die). Try it in a Christian way instead. I think you’ll like it… and you’ll see happiness levels in the civilian world SKYROCKET… once the caps remove the join-or-die, and pay-up-or-die.

Chance: In fact, as our current socialist system begins to contract, the military is destined for considerable downsizing.

Only non-capitalists are doing socialism. Seen any? Blogged with any?

Chance: Distributing resources is the easy part of building a society. It is producing those resources that is the difficult part. That is, if it were possible to divorce the two, which it is not.

Hooray, you didn’t say a thing about “economy” and “own” in those sentences, so I can agree with you on this one. Yes, it will be quite challenging to ask folks to go to work WITH Team World, especially those who were born capitalism set-for-life and have done nothing but shop and do enjoyments their whole lives, so far.

Chance: As far as you having to leave my site due to “controlism,” I simply asked you to stop insulting me and stop accusing me of ignoring your points when I had answered them repeatedly. I wish you would spend a little more time reading and a little less time writing.

No, you said far more than that. Go back to your control-freak blog and have a good time playing gestapo and trying to be empowered. The folks here are classy and honorable. Happy Holidays! Wingthing

For all the times you accuse people of not listening to you, I wish you would take the time to listen to other people on occasion. Why should these gentlemen need to answer all the same questions you’ve already asked and had answered?

As I have explained to you before, the military is simply not a viable example on which to build your new society. As Dan described, it is heavily hierarchical and controlled. “Survival” rersources are not distributed evenly. Google the military pay scale and bonus structure. You will see that the military structures its reward system based on the demands of the employment market. I receive a sizable bonus every year so that I won’t leave to work somewhere else with the nuclear engineering knowledge the Navy has provided me.

More than that, though, (and as I have described to you before) the military is not a resource producer; it is a resource sink. The military would not exist without a producing economy behind it to feed it resources. In fact, as our current socialist system begins to contract, the military is destined for considerable downsizing. Distributing resources is the easy part of building a society. It is producing those resources that is the difficult part. That is, if it were possible to divorce the two, which it is not.

As far as you having to leave my site due to “controlism,” I simply asked you to stop insulting me and stop accusing me of ignoring your points when I had answered them repeatedly. I wish you would spend a little more time reading and a little less time writing.

According to author Ronald Lewin, Adolf Hitler once remarked that it was “the task of the commander-in-chief to educate the army to be National Socialist.”

Here are other interesting quotes that definitely were not made by a capitalist:

“Gold is not neccesary. I have no interest in gold. We will build a solid state, without an ounce of gold behind it. Anyone who sells above the set prices let him be marched off to a concentration camp. That’s the bastion of money.”

“Society’s needs come before the individual’s needs.”

“It is thus necessary that the individual should finally come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of the nation, that the position of the individual is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole.”

“Why nationalize industry when you can nationalize the people?”

For the folk-community does not exist on the fictitious value of money but on the results of productive labour, which is what gives money its value.

(source: liberty-tree.ca)

Perhaps you have read some of these before, but at any rate. all the above quotes were also attributed to Adolf Hitler. It certainly does not surprise me one bit that he chose to describe himself as a socialist.

“move on, grow up and be responsible”

Oh my God! That is a scary kind of duty-bound-ness to being good little marchers in the imperialism. Do you have children, Dan? If so, do you sometimes say “do as you’re told”, and/or “and that’s final” and/or “don’t talk back”, by chance? I smell Gestapo. Anyone else?

As far as chain of command, I don’t know if the military has a wise one or not, but I do know that the military’s ranking system is seen to be based upon tenure and proficiency in skills. Military rank is never determined upon abilities to gouge greenbacks from consumers.

Those US military survival and supply systems were not just plucked out of the field like your field mouse. They are all, without exception, the result of cooperative efforts coordinated by free people, voluntarily selling their time and skills in the capitalist markets. People who force others to work for them involuntarily should go to jail. That is slavery. People should, however, be allowed to negotiate with anyone else over how much they should be paid for their services or their can of spaghetti sauce or anything else that they want to voluntarily offer to other people.

As far as the military goes, you must be looking at the military from a different planet. Every military organization on earth is a strict hierarchy. The officers get the best treatment, the best food, the best and most spacious quarters, the best…. Enlisted men get what they get, and they had better like it.

People in the military take orders or they see the inside of a prison cell. There is no pretense of equality. Inequality is built in and strictly enforced. The military comes as close as possible to involuntary servitude of any system outside of outright slavery. You need to work a little harder coming up with an analogy for your system.

You are absolutely right, however, that everybody, without exception, has a right to basic wellbeing and happiness. They just don’t have any right to take it involuntarily from someone else, or have the state take it for them. Each person needs to be loved, fed and “well being’d” by his mom and dad, or other people important to him. The job of churches and private charities is to love and “well being” those who have had hard times, and that is a wonderful thing. When the hard times are over, it is time to move on, grow up and be responsible.

Where are the best communes and socialisms that are thriving in the US? It would be interesting to study them. Then maybe what you are saying would make more sense.

What they need to do, if they don’t like capitalists, is just stop interacting with them and enjoy their well being. Don’t buy any capitalist food or capitalist building products or capitalist electricity, capitalist electronic networks and equipment or capitalist military survival supplies. Then they wouldn’t have to worry about capitalists at all.

And yes, people with different aptitudes and skillsets, need to be treated differently than each other… but it should NEVER affect the attaining of basic wellbeing and pursuit of happiness opportunities, no matter how different one person is from another. If there IS an inequality (difference?) between any two or more people, than that inequality (difference)… must not affect the levels of wellbeing and opportunities for pursuit of happiness. Yes, some will need to be denied driving a space shuttle due to incorrect aptitude to obtain skills to become qualified to do so. Still, that person must be loved, fed, and generally wellbeing’d exactly the same as the very best shuttle pilots. Wellbeing (money) discrimination causes classes and servitude… and thus pyramiding. And servitude… is slavery… and is illegal. Happy Holidays! Wing Chung King

The problem with Wingnut is that he envisions a utopian existence without any semblance to reality.
The fact that he can visualize something doesn’t mean that he can make it work or that it can become real.
I would suggest visiting other countries to get other economic and social perspectives. Or at the very least, do an objective unbiased study of different political systems and how they were applied in different countries.

I am reminded of the following quotes by Frederich Hayek:

(courtesy of Adamsmith.org)

From the fact that people are very different it follows that, if we treat them equally, the result must be inequality in their actual position, and that the only way to place them in an equal position would be to treat them differently. Equality before the law and material equality are therefore not only different but are in conflict which each other; and we can achieve either one or the other, but not both at the same time.

The rationalist whose reason is not sufficient to teach him those limitations of the powers of conscious reason, and who despises all the institutions and the customs which have not been consciously designed, would thus become the destroyer of the civilisation built upon them.

Is there a greater tragedy imaginable than that, in our endeavour consciously to shape our future in accordance with high ideals, we should in fact unwittingly produce the very opposite of what we have been striving.

That democratic socialism, the great utopia of the last few generations, is not only unachievable, but that to strive for it produces something so utterly different that few of those who wish it would be prepared to accept the consequences, many will not believe until the connection has been laid bare in all its aspects.

…we must shed the illusion that we can deliberately ‘create the future of mankind’…This is the final conclusion of the forty years which I have now devoted to the study of these problems…